Thursday, December 22, 2005

Southerton Responds to FARMS Review

Simon Southerton has responded to Ryan Parr's review of Losing a Lost Tribe in the latest FARMS Review. (hat-tip to Justin B.) I've read both documents, but I am somewhat hampered by the fact that I lack any specialized training in genetics or anthropology, nor have I been able to delve into most of the references contained in each document. I also have not read Southerton's book. So I'll just provide my impression.

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As far as the issues of science go, I think Southerton probably has the upper hand. Parr himself says that Southerton has presented the genetic picture accurately, and I'm not aware of any other LDS scientists who have disputed this. Like Southerton, I too wondered what the paper on fish had to do with Parr's point, and as I expressed previously, I was concerned about Parr's use of the word "coalescence." I did find a source that seemded to vindicate Parr, but clearly Southerton thinks that Parr used the wrong word. Perhaps who is right on this point is not significant.

If Southerton presents the main science correctly, then the argument is really about whether the Book of Mormon scenario is feasible given different assumptions (i.e. limited geography) and finding analogous situations elsewhere. Another secondary point of contention is whether Mormon theology is flexible enough to accommodate those assumptions.

My initial impression is that Southerton is strong on the science but weak on theology. That is, I think he underestimates the ability of the church members to adjust to demonstrated facts. It is a little ironic that elsewhere he has said that he went public on this issue to force the Church to change, but then argues that it cannot change. I think this passage is a manifestation of this kind of thinking:

During his undergraduate and graduate studies, Parr would have become aware of the considerable archaeological, anthropological, and now molecular evidence that the North American continent was widely populated at least 13,500 years ago and that the original Asian ancestors arrived in the continent in excess of 15,000 years ago. Because of Parr's church experience, he will also be aware that many readers of the FARMS Review are unprepared to accept such early dates for the colonization of the Americas...Parr deftly avoids mentioning the presence of people in the Americas as long as 13,500 years ago, an admission that would only raise further questions among many Latter-day Saint readers.
My guess is that he underestimates readers of FARMS. After all, it has been pointed out in a previous FARMS publication that the very fact that the model of colonization involves such ancient dates undercuts the criticism of fundamentalist anti-Mormons.

I must say I was surprised by this statement:
In my case, for thirty years my religious orientation was accompanied by a distorted understanding of the true history of America's past. Not only did I know little of the science that was applicable to this issue, I accepted without question the widespread urban legends in the church, one being that BYU scholars had found archaeological evidence in Mesoamerica that supported the Book of Mormon, another being that the Smithsonian Institution had used the Book of Mormon as a guide in some of their research.
How is it that Southerton only relatively recently arrived at his new-found skepticism? Either Southerton is not quite honest or his was the faith of a sweet innocent boy. I've known since at least I was a teenager that the Smithsonian does not use the Book of Mormon as a research guide--a fact not infrequently pointed out in anti-Mormon literature, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone affirm otherwise. Regarding archaeological evidence--well that is probably a nuanced issue that cannot be dealt with here.

Taking him at his word, I think he does raise a legitimate point--and that is that both apologists and members must be careful. Apologists should make their best case, but be careful not to over-reach. Members need to build their faith on the right foundation and maintain an element of skepticism--even regarding the apologists.

Whether Southerton, Murphy, FARMS, or FAIR, we need to make sure each stays honest in this debate.

9 comments:

Anonymous,  12/22/2005 01:08:00 PM  

Southerton had an interesting piece in the last Sunstone where he decried FARMS' "uber-politics."

His point was this: by shifting the goalposts to create a Limited Geography (and to keep the BoM scientifically and historically plausible), FARMS has effectively done away with the Indians-as-Lamanites model which has been so cherished by the church, and its indigenous members.

Like you, I think those Mormons who are aware of these issues are more sophisticated than Southerton implies. But still, he has a point worth considering.

Anonymous,  12/22/2005 01:18:00 PM  

I would add that there's no pleasing him, though.

Basically he has said, "The Book of Mormon ain't what you claim it to be!"

FARM has said, "Well, many of us have made inaccurate claims in the past. The Book is exactly what IT claims to be (a limited history)."

Southerton: "Sorry, you can't do that..."

Jeff G,  12/22/2005 02:07:00 PM  

While I do think that the Signature Books crowd fails to recognize the power of the limited Geography model, I think that the FARMS crowd tends to miss a lot of what the SB's are saying.

Yes the BoM allows for, maybe even calls for "others" to be present, but this only comes from reading it in a very different light than Joseph would have. The limited model came about by anthropologists and the like realizing that the internal consistencies and distances described in the BoM simply don't allow for a hemispheric model. Thus the limited model sprung upon in response to these "inconsistencies" as an attempt at correcting the church's rather official reading of the book both of which came under the assumption that the BoM was an actual historical document.

Signature doesn't share this assumption. They believe that the book was written mainly as a form of inspired fiction, mostly invented in the mind of Joseph Smith, who can hardly be considered to have been all that well informed regarding the internal geographic consistencies of the BoM when he "wrote" it. Thus, Joseph clearly believed in a hemispherical model all the while saying thing which didn't make sense in such a setting like for instance that ruins in Guatemala we in the southern land. Signature accepts that Joseph wrote the book with the intention of describing the entire hemisphere but due to his ignorance simply messed up in quite few details.

Thus, according to Signature, the limited geography model is simply an ad hoc modification of a failed model. It's not that FARMS changed their story in response to Genetics, but rather that they did so in response to basic geography.

One must admit that their position isn't all that weak for it does seem to cover the appearances better than FARMS' model does.

Christian Y. Cardall,  12/22/2005 03:18:00 PM  

Two points:

First, "The end of the classification of all indigenous people as Lamanites" will probably never come, (a) for the typical member because specific hypothesized limited geographies will never make it into official Church discourse, and (b) for the sophisticated historicist member who will always be able to take some sort of "adoptive" approach to the label "Lamanites."

Second, another important (and not reassuring) evolution in limited geography thinking has been the retreat from Sorenson's "An Approach..." model in which Jaredites and then Nephites account for essentially all Olmec and then pre-classic Maya culture, to the current FARMS position that BoM peoples were insignificant drops in the Mesoamerican genetic and cultural seas.

Clark Goble,  12/22/2005 09:51:00 PM  

Someone really ought bring up Blake's letter to Sunstone. I think Blake is entirely correct.

I also think Southerton is quite wrong. First off LGT has been around a long time: well before the DNA studies. Secondly I actually do think most FARMS Review readers are already familiar with the early settlement of the Americas via the Siberian landbridge. It has been discussed at times, as I recall.

I think Southerton (and many others) really are arguing that the meaning of the text can only be discerned via reader response criticism. Which seems ridiculous to me.

Jeffrey, don't you think the Joseph as author who managed to screw up the internal geography so it is internally consistent but completely inconsistent with his readings is a tad...difficult to accept? I recognize this is some of Signature's argument. But
it's really hard to buy. I mean argue he stole it from someone else or forgot the planning of the book. But beyond that it's pretty hard to believe.

RT, I fully agree there are some huge problems with Sorenson's particular placement of the text.

Christian, where does Sorenson assert that the Nephites were all the Olemec and Mayans? I'm looking but I can't find it.

Anonymous,  12/23/2005 09:16:00 AM  

Brent Lee Metcalfe take on the limited geography model REINVENTING LAMANITE IDENTITY

Christian Y. Cardall,  12/23/2005 10:40:00 AM  

Clark: It's implicit in motivating the identification of the rises and falls of Olmec and pre-classic Mayan civilizations with the Jaredites and Nephites respectively. If the Jaredites and Nephites are insignificant drops in the surrounding Mesoamerican cultural sea, then there is no reason to expect for example the fall of the Olmecs with that of the Jaredites. His arguments lose a great deal of their force.

Clark Goble,  12/23/2005 02:00:00 PM  

Christian, I don't see that. If the Nephites were among those peoples then the Nephite fall may well have been tied to larger cultural patterns. Much like one could argue that the cultural patterns among Utah Mormons are actually part of larger trends in the United States or even the entire Western world.

So if that is the argument, I don't buy that Sorenson is making it.

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