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Joseph Fielding Smith and Sterling Talmage on God's Power
In Man, His Origin and Destiny (MHOD) President Joseph Fielding Smith described a conversation that resulted from a speech in which he gave his opinion that the earth literally stood still for Joshua (p. 12).
[The speech] was published and it brought into my office a teacher of science with whom I had gone to school in earlier days. He took me to task for my remarks and said: "Why, do you not know that if the earth slowed up for part of a day that it would create such a terrific wind that everything on the face of the earth would be swept off?" I looked at him and with a smile said: "My goodness! Is it not too bad that the Lord would not know this?" The conversation ended.
Over 20 years previous to the publication of MHOD, Sterling Talmage, the son of Elder James E. Talmage, argued this same point with then Elder Smith. Again, the context was a speech by Elder Smith, published in October 1930, wherein he related someone's incredulity [1] that the earth stopped and then argued that God has all power to do so. Sterling responded with "An Open Letter to Elder Joseph Fielding Smith" [2]. In the letter Sterling detailed some of the catastrophic consequences stopping the earth would have. The portion quoted below specifically addresses God's power.
For the reasons given I cannot believe that the rotation of the earth was stopped in the interests of Joshua's victory. Let me make clear the fact that I am not questioning the power of God to do so. He could have stopped the rotation of the earth, or he could have made the earth cubical instead of spherical, or he could have made water run uphill instead of down, or he could have caused the oceans to hang on the hillsides instead of settle in the basins, or he could have made the sun move around the earth as the moon does.
But he did not!
... I am convinced that the laws of nature are a part of the law of God. It is only another step to say that the law of gravity is as much a part of God's plan as is the law of tithing. And I claim that it is not irreverent to say that God cannot wantonly ignore the law of gravity that he has established to hold the planets in their courses, any more than to say that he cannot make a tithe (defined as a tenth) equal to seven or to seventeen percent. This is only another way of saying that God cannot perpetrate an absurdity. I admit that, in the realm of miracles, I am not wise enough to say in every case what constitutes an absurdity; but some of them are not hard to recognize.
Talmage's argument is certainly an interesting one, and I think there is merit to it, but I also have some sympathy for President Smith's perspective. I think it's best to make as few assumptions about God as possible. The more an argument is based on collected evidence, the better.
Notes:
1. This may be a reference to the same conversation as related in MHOD.
2. Published in Can Science Be Faith Promoting?
7 comments:
I like Sterling's arguments. I suppose I don't see why we need to insist on literalism. How much easier to make it seem to a few consciousnesses that the sun was standing still, than to intervene in such violent ways as stopping the rotation of the earth, fixing all the calamities caused thereby, and then covering all the evidence. It's especially difficult to see when we don't see those kinds of interventions today. It always seemed odd to me that the level of the Lord's massive interventions (worldwide floods, stopping earth's rotation, opening cracks in the Earth to wipe out a few heretics) seems to vary proportionally to the distance in the past the event was suppose to occur. It is especially troubling in light of no such interventions occurring in Nazi Germany, Darfur, or even Haun's Mill or Mountain Meadows.
A very interesting post! Thank you.
Where is the physical evidence that the Earth has ever ceased rotating since it began? Did God hide all of the evidence except the passage of the Bible that makes the claim? It seems far more likely that the author interpreted his experience or imagination into the text, along with whatever inspiration he may also have received from God.
Jared*: I find myself incredulously staring at your post and its comments.
"If the Earth under present conditions were to halt its rotation totally in six hours, the deceleration experienced at the equator would be the same as a car traveling at sixty miles per hour taking twenty minutes to stop. Stopping the car in an easy span of thirty seconds would be equivalent to halting the Earth in a cool 8.7 minutes—not enough to strain a seat belt, never mind throw people off the planet." (James P. Hogan, Kicking the Sacred Cow, 2004, Baen Books, Ch.29.)
SteveP: Just exactly what would be the "calamities" caused by taking 30 seconds to slow a car from 60 mph to a complete stop?
Lincoln Cannon: What kinds of evidence are you looking for to show that the car stopped in 30 seconds?
I have to agree with r. gary's sentiments. It seems a clear case of not really understanding how God controls matter. Remember that we (us simple spirits in the pre-existence) controlled matter sufficiently to form the planets, moons and sun. Christ stated that with us having only the faith of a grain of mustard seed that we can command matter and it will obey US.
So imagine what God could do. He sets things to work in natural order. But he isn't restricted in his ability to use other natural principles (the ability to perfectly control matter) to create other outcomes where necessary.
I find it disturbing that so many feel that the ancients were all stupid, and didn't understand things as we brilliant people of today do: The progressive knowledge is inevitable theory.
Our technology may be advancing, but the same can't be said for our "science." No, the two aren't the same.
Well, darn. I haven't been getting my email updates on comments.
Gary,
Sterling argued that slowing the earth gradually (in hours, not days) would create at least two problems. First, there would be enormous winds because there is so little friction between the earth and the atmosphere. Second, the earth bulges at the equator because of centrifugal forces. Stopping the earth would release those forces resulting in catastrophic changes in sea level and earthquakes. A supplemental argument of his is that no other culture seems to have recorded such a miracle.
Incidentally, I've found a few sources that argue that the passage can also be translated to mean that the army was relieved from the heat of the sun--i.e. that it became overcast.
Whatever the case, although I believe a simpler phenomenon was probably at play, I can't really get worked up over whether the earth actually stopped. Not based on what I know (which is not much) of relevant evidence.
I would expect Latter-day Saints to be more enlightened on this subject. Mormon, paraphrasing Helaman, put this to rest long ago. "If he say unto the earth - Thou shalt go back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours - it is done; And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun." (Helaman 12:14, 15.) I guess Sterling didn't notice this when he read his Book of Mormon, like the rest of you. And if you still doubt, try reading ancient accounts from profane history about the same thing. The best example is in Plato where the Egyptian Manetho explains that the Greek myth of Phaethon was really about a natural catastrophe where the sun went out of its course and nearly destroyed the world. Insist on literalism? Call it what you will. No evidence? What have you been reading? I go with the prophets. How about you? Come on, my fellow saints. Don't articulate your ignorance in front of God, angels and these witnesses on the Internet, as Sterling did. Thank God for the likes of inspired and informed men like Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith. If you want to know more about this, I suggest you watch my video, "Joshua's Long Day." (http://youtube.com/user/toeknee1943)
I think it is debatable whether Mormon is independently verifying the method of the miracle. And if I may quote Elder John A. Widtsoe,
"The explanation of the occurrence made by the writer or some later copyist, implies that the earth ceased its daily rotation and annual course around the sun, to bring about the needed additional daylight for Israel's victory in battle. This may well be questioned. Even limited human knowledge suggests several simpler methods—refraction and reflection of light, for instance, by which the extension of daylight might be accomplished. Divine power may stop the rotation of the earth, let that be clearly accepted, but it certainly may have at its command other means for extending the hours of light in a day."
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